Greece & Rome's topics - tribe.net

Ancient Greeks aligned temples to the sun

Rocky — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:12:59 GMT

Ancient Greeks aligned temples to the sun

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=215:ancient-greeks-aligned-temples-to-the-sun&catid=47:astrotheology

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posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Suicide in the Ancient World

Anastasia — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:10:36 GMT

This is a piece from my Ana the Imp blog which I thought people might find of interest. I have other articles I've written on Greece and Rome in my blog archive. Sorry; I'm not trying to advertise!

To begin with consider the example given by Titus Livy of the colony of Massalia, the present day Marseilles, where those who wanted to kill themselves merely applied to the senate, and if their reasons were judged sound they were then given hemlock free of charge!

In general the pagan world, both Roman and Greek, had a far more relaxed attitude towards the whole concept of suicide, a practice that was only finally outlawed with the advent of the Christians, who condemned it at the Council of Arles in 452 as the work of the Devil.

There is, however, some echo of later Christian hostility in earlier pagan thinkers. Pythagoras, for example, was against the act, though more on mathematical than moral grounds, believing that there was only a finite number of souls for use in the world, and that the sudden and unexpected departure of one upset a delicate balance. Aristotle also condemned suicide, though for quite different, far more practical reasons, in that it robbed the community of the services of one of its members.

A reading of "Phaedo" suggests that Plato was also against the practice, inasmuch as he allows Socrates to defend the teachings of the Orphics, who believed that the human body was the property of God, and thus self-harm was a direct offense against divine law. Yet, it's not quite so simple, because after Socrates says than no man has a right to suicide, this is then qualified by the statement "...unless God sends some necessity upon him, as has now been sent upon me." After all, let's not forget that Socrates himself was a suicide, perhaps the most famous in history!

In Rome suicide was never a general offence in law, though the whole approach to the question was essentially pragmatic. It was specifically forbidden in three cases: those accused of capital crimes, soldiers and slaves. The reason behind all three was the same-it was uneconomic for these people to die. If the accused killed themselves prior to trial and conviction then the state lost the right to seize their property, a loophole that was only closed by Domitian in the first century AD, who decreed that those who died prior to trial were without legal heirs. The suicide of a soldier was treated on the same basis as desertion. If a slave killed her or himself within six months of purchase, the master could claim a full refund from the former owner.

But the Romans fully approved of what might be termed 'patriotic suicide'; death, in other words, as an alternative to dishonour. For the Stoics, a philisophical sect which originated in Greece, death was a guarantee of personal freedom, a way out of an intolerable existence. And so it was for Cato the Younger, who killed himself after the Pompeian cause was defeated at the Battle of Thapsus. This was a 'virtuous death', one guided by reason and conscience. His example was later followed by Seneca, with as much courage and virtue, though under somewhat more straightened circumstances.

A very definite line was drawn by the Romans between the virtuous suicide and suicide for entirely private reasons. They disapproved of Mark Antony not because he killed himself, but that he killed himself for love, a very un-Roman thing to do!

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

New Film about Hypatia: Agora

Rocky — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:52:18 GMT

New Film about Hypatia: Agora

Hypatia - new film 2009
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2835

New Film coming out - "Agora"
(with Rachel Weisz as Hypatia) - Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSTkMYECxX4&feature=channel

This film could be significant because it describes the barbaric history of Christianity"

The synopsis:

"4th century AD Egypt under the Roman Empire...Violent religious upheaval in the streets of Alexandria spills over into the city's famous Library. Trapped inside its walls, the brilliant astronomer Hypatia and her disciples fight to save the wisdom of the Ancient World... Among them, the two men competing for her heart: the witty, privileged Orestes and Davus, Hypatia's young slave, who is torn between his secret love for her and the freedom he knows can be his if he chooses to join the unstoppable surge of the Christians."

The death of the beautiful Hypatia marked the end of the Greek Philosophy and Science. After her murder Europe entered the Dark Ages.

Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

"415 A.D.:

In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLzbxJ0RNFY

Official Web Site http://agorathemovie.com

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posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

Greek Graphics / Merchandise classical & contemporary

vivg — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:07:24 GMT

Take a peek here: http://www.zazzle.com/vivg_vivg

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

German battlefield yields Roman surprises

Phoenix Faust — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:27:46 GMT

HANOVER, Germany (CNN) -- Archaeologists have found more than 600 relics from a huge battle between a Roman army and Barbarians in the third century, long after historians believed Rome had given up control of northern Germany.

Researchers say the evidence suggests the tribesmen lured the Romans into forest.

"We have to write our history books new, because what we thought was that the activities of the Romans ended at nine or 10 (years) after Christ," said Lutz Stratmann, science minister for the German state of Lower Saxony. "Now we know that it must be 200 or 250 after that."

For weeks, archeologist Petra Loenne and her team have been searching this area with metal detectors, pulling hundreds of ancient Roman weapons out of the ground. They paint a picture of a highly organized, technologically superior Roman army beset by Germanic tribes in a forest about 80 km (50 miles) south of the modern city of Hanover.

The hillside battlefield was discovered by relic-hunters illegally searching for souvenirs of more recent wars near the town of Kalefeld-Oldenrode. One of them brought some of the items he found to Loenne, who works for the local government.

The artifacts are so well preserved that the scientists can already retrace some of the battle lines.

"We believe the Germans ambushed the Romans here, but the legions quickly fired back with catapults and archers -- and then it came to a massive man-on-man onslaught," Loenne said.

The items unearthed so far include an axe, still sharp after nearly 1,800 years; horseshoes; shovels; spearheads; and dozens of arrowheads for a Scorpio, a cross between a catapult and a crossbow -- the ancient equivalent of artillery.

"With a very high speed, on a very long distance -- about 300 meters -- you can hit targets precisely," said Henning Hassman, of Hanover's archeological institute.

Researchers say the evidence suggests the tribesmen lured the Romans into the forest to keep them from making full use of those long-range weapons and draw them into hand-to-hand combat, outside of the formations the imperial troops had mastered. However, they believe the Romans ultimately prevailed.

Other relics include coins depicting the late second-century Roman emperor Commodus, depicted in the Oscar-winning Hollywood epic "Gladiator" -- a film that opens with a scene of battle against a barbarian horde that scientists say appears to be largely accurate. And Loenne said her team may have only begun to scratch the surface of the forest.

"We hope we might find fortifications and if we are lucky, maybe even battlefield graveyards," she said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/05/germany.battlefield/index.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Asclepius' 5 daughters

Rocky — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:25:29 GMT

What is the time frame for each of Asclepius' daughters? Most sources say he had 5 daughters ... What is the time frame in which Asclepius had his 6th daughter?

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

2,500-Year-Old Greek Ship Raised off Sicilian Coast

Phoenix Faust — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:35:44 GMT

Maria Cristina Valsecchi in Rome
for National Geographic News
August 11, 2008

An ancient Greek ship recently raised off the coast of southern Sicily, Italy, is the biggest and best maintained vessel of its kind ever found, archaeologists say.

At a length of nearly 70 feet (21 meters) and a width of 21 feet (6.5 meters), the 2,500-year-old craft is the largest recovered ship built in a manner first depicted in Homer's Iliad, which is believed to date back several centuries earlier.

The ship's outer shell was built first, and the inner framework was added later. The wooden planks of the hull were sewn together with ropes, with pitch and resin used as sealant to keep out water.

Carlo Beltrame, professor of marine archaeology at the Università Ca' Foscari in Venice, said the boat, found near the town of Gela, is among the most important finds in the Mediterranean Sea.

"Greek sewn boats have been found in Italy, France, Spain, and Turkey. Gela's wreck is the most recent and the best preserved," Beltrame said.

After 25 Centuries

The Italian Coast Guard helped archaeologists pull the wreck to the surface last month.

A floating crane lifted the main segment, a 36-foot (11-meter) chunk, and dragged it to land. The remains were then plunged into a tank of fresh water to remove the salt from the wood.

"The vessel was a mercantile sailer, probably used to sail short stretches along the coast, docking frequently to load and unload," said Rosalba Panvini, head of the Cultural Heritage Department of Sicily, who directed the raising operations.

Recovered artifacts—including cups, two-handled jars called amphoras, oil lamps, pottery, and fragments of straw baskets—reveal details of the ship's journey before it sank, Panvini said.

"The vessel stopped in Athens, then in the Peloponnese Peninsula," Panvini said. "It sailed up the western coast of Greece, crossed the Otranto Channel, coasted along Italy, and pointed to Sicily."

The ship was headed for Gela, then a Greek colony. About a half mile (800 meters) off the coast, a storm probably tilted the ship. The ballast broke the hull, and the vessel went down, where it lay on the muddy seabed for 25 centuries.

In 1988 two scuba divers discovered the remains and informed the Sicilian Cultural Heritage Department.

It took 20 years to recover the whole vessel, which will now be sent to Portsmouth, U.K., to be restored before it returns to Gela. Officials hope to display the restored ship in a planned new sea museum.

A Sewn Boat

Beltrame, of the Università Ca' Foscari, said the ship—"part of a family of archaic Greek vessels"—is something of a missing link in the evolution of naval engineering.

"It shows a mix of sewing and mortise-and-tenon joints—a different technique that later prevailed in shipbuilding," Beltrame said, referring to joints in which a protrusion in one piece of wood inserts into a cavity in another.

Roberto Petriaggi of the Italian Central Institute for Restoration said Greeks were not the only people in the region to build ships using the sewing method.

"Technical knowledge spread easily around the Mediterranean Basin," he said. "We have finds proving that Egyptians and Phoenician-Punic people used that method, too."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080811-greek-ship.html?source=email_wn_20080814&email=wn

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Treasure trove unearthed in Greece

Phoenix Faust — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:02:46 GMT

ATHENS, Greece – A priceless gold wreath has been unearthed in an ancient city in northern Greece, buried with human bones in a large copper vase that workers initially took for a landmine.

The University of Thessaloniki said in a statement Friday that the "astonishing" discovery was made during excavations this week in the ruins of ancient Aigai.

The city was the first capital of ancient Macedonia where King Philip II – father of Alexander the Great – was assassinated.

The find is highly unusual as the rich artifacts appear to have been removed from a grave during ancient times and, for reasons that remain unclear, reburied in the city's marketplace near a shrine of the goddess Eukleia.

The "impressively large" copper vessel contained a cylindrical golden jar with a lid, with the gold wreath and the bones inside.

Excavator Chryssoula Saatsoglou-Paliadeli told The Associated Press the find probably dates to some time in the 4th century B.C., during which Philip and Alexander reigned.

"The young workman who saw it was astounded and shouted 'land mine!"' the university statement said.

"Archeologists must explain why such a group ... was found outside the extensive royal cemetery," the university statement said. "(They must also) work out why the bones of the unknown – but not insignificant – person were hidden in the city's most public and sacred area."

During the 4th century B.C., burials outside organized cemeteries were very uncommon.

In a royal cemetery at Vergina, just west of Aigai, Greek archeologists discovered a wealth of gold and silver treasure in 1977. One of the monumental graves is generally accepted to have belonged to Philip II.

The sprawling remains of a large building with banquet halls and ornate mosaics at Aigai – some 520 kilometres north of Athens – has been identified as Philip's palace.

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Roman sarcophagi discovered in Newcastle, 1,800 years after they were sealed

Phoenix Faust — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:31:04 GMT

Archaeologists found the remains of a middle-aged adult who lived during the end of Britain's Roman occupation when they opened a 1,700-year-old sarcophagus yesterday.

The discovery of the sandstone coffin - and another believed to be from the same family - in central Newcastle was one of the most important finds in the area for a century.

The coffins were buried side by side and were thought to hold powerful residents of the adjacent walled fort of Pons Aelius, close to where the city's railway station now stands.

The lid of one sarcophagus will be lifted by Durham University experts tomorrow morning to discover what it holds inside.

The other sarcophagus has already been opened and removed from the site for safekeeping.

This was found to contain the poorly-preserved skeleton of a child, aged around six years old, which was submerged in water and sludge.

The head of the child appeared to have been removed and placed elsewhere in the coffin, which was an unusual but not unknown practice in Roman times.

It is possible the burial included the remains of an older person in the same coffin.

The tombs, the most archaeologically significant find at the dig, were discovered by a team from Durham University.

In 1903, two sarcophagi were found at the former Turnbull Warehouse site, in Newcastle upon Tyne, which is now home to a block of luxury flats.

The Durham University team was hired by a development company which aims to build a modern office block on the site once its archaeological riches have been preserved for future generations.

Other discoveries at the site, on Forth Street, include cremation urns, providing evidence of other Roman burials on site; a cobbled Roman road which experts believe may have been part of the old main road from the South of England to the North; a Roman well and a Medieval well; the remains of the foundations of Roman shops and workers' homes, along with the remains of flint tools from Stone Age hunter-gatherers.

The site has been home to numerous developments since the Middle Stone Age.

It was most recently home to warehouses and offices of the British Electrical and Manufacturing Company and still hosts a disused 19th century Presbyterian Church, which is a listed building.

Richard Annis, from Durham University, said: 'These sarcophagi would have been a prominent feature of the landscape, as they were carefully placed to be viewed, being close to the road and, at the time, raised above the ground.

'They would certainly have had to belong to a wealthy family of a high status in the community, perhaps at Fort Commander level or at senior level in the Roman army.

'Very few people could have afforded to bury their child in such a grand fashion.'

The sarcophagi, about 70cm wide and 180cm long, have walls around 10cm thick and weigh up to half a tonne each.

They are both carved out of a single piece of sandstone. Each lid was fixed in place with iron pegs sealed with molten lead.

After analysis by the Durham University team, all of the finds from the site will eventually go to the new Great North Museum in Newcastle, where the sarcophagi will be preserved for the public to see.

In Roman times, it was unlawful to bury bodies inside settlements. Cemeteries were laid out at the roadside, near the gates of forts and towns.

Mr Annis added: 'It is very likely that a burial ceremony would have been held at the tombs, perhaps attended by many people.

'We know that some families hired professional mourners, who would weep and wail and add to the atmosphere of the burial.'

David Heslop, Tyne and Wear County Archaeologist, added: 'For the first time, we are starting to understand the layout of the civilian settlement that provided services to the garrison of the fort, and we can catch a glimpse of the Roman way of life, and death, on the northern frontier of the Empire.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1045310/Roman-sarcophagi-discovered-Newcastle-1-800-years-sealed.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Orphic Argonautica

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 06:06:38 GMT

I'm wondering if anyone here can point me to a text, online or in print, of the Argonautica attributed to Orpheus? Thanks.

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

The Last Legion

Anat — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:46:06 GMT

what do u think of the movie?

BTW

Tiberius - the last emperor directly related to Caesar???
How come?

posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

mythology in music

Fox — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:23:19 GMT

hi,
I love classical mythology, and get great joy from hearing little references to any myth in music....
I was hoping for suggestions on songs with such references, the only ones I could think of were:
They Might Be Giants- birdhouse in your soul (mentions jason and the argonauts)
Jason Webley- Icarus

others??

thanks.

posted in Greece & Rome - 10 replies

HBO's Rome

spidra — Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:37 GMT

So whose going to give us the blow-by-blow accuracies and inaccuracies of this?:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/26/DDGU3EA8DR26.DTL

http://www.hbo.com/rome

posted in Greece & Rome - 23 replies

Movie 300

Abe — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:30:29 GMT

Can't wait to see this movie!

http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/

The company my sister works for has produced this film. It's a highly stylized version. Drawing on many of the scenes from the comic book, not the actual story. Nevertheless it really make some wonderful drama.

Anyone got any sneak peaks or thoughts on this?

posted in Greece & Rome - 14 replies

Pre and post-invasion planning

Inaras — Fri, 03 Mar 2006 07:07:09 GMT

Can anyone recommend some reputable books on how the Romans went about planning when/where to invade and what to do with a new province when it was conquered? My main interest is in social aspects such as how they went about gauging the strength of enemies, how they got the empire's citizens behind campaigns, and how they tried to Romanize a conquered population (what we would today call winning hearts and minds). I'm also curious as to how these strategies changed over time and how they stack up against methods used by other empires.

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

taxonomy of ancient Roman oratory hand gestures

Anat — Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:58:01 GMT

hi guys,
I'm watching HBO's Rome for some time now, & I've wondered, where are the hand gestures taken from and what do they mean?
Anybody got an idea?
tnx, Anat

posted in Greece & Rome - 2 replies

the pre-socratics

lorenzo — Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:58:18 GMT

anyone else love these guys?

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

Suppose, just suppose. . .

lorenzo — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 06:47:10 GMT

that Jesus did not claim to be the son of jehovah, but instead the son of. . .Zeus!!!

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Ajax's home sweet home?

CRMgroupie — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 02:19:03 GMT

a 3,200 year old palace was found on Salamis about six years ago, and this is just a recap plus some talk about it being Ajax's kingdom back in the day.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_sc/greece_ajax_palace_2;_ylt=Agk8IGfpbIPrY_C3.c.rlQpFeQoB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

posted in Greece & Rome - 9 replies

Coming to Athens Feb. 1-5

shamelessheather — Mon, 22 Jan 2007 00:29:08 GMT

Hello Athens!
I'm coming with my friend Shanan
www.tribe.net/shanaynay

February 1-5!
What's going on at this time?
It would be great to meet up with some cool people.

I'm very excited to visit you guys! Anything fun going on those dates? We love to dance (breakbeats!), museums, parties, theater, etc.

Can't wait to hear from you!

We love to dress up and go out to clubs and parties. San Francisco has a lot of theme parties and people here are always going out in costumes and such. It's quite common to have a bunch of bunnies shakin' it to killer breakbeats in a packed club, or a mass of Pirates on a pub crawl. Yes, SF is full of freaks, but we're kind and (mostly) gentle, and believe in peace and love and all that... we just want to have a good time and get down! Check my "adventures in San Francisco" pictures and you'll get the idea.

So, what does Athens have to offer? I heard there's a celebration kind of like Halloween happening, there's got to be some fun to be had! Can anyone tell me more about this holiday? Thanks!

And does anyone want to go have it with us?

Cheers!

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

i'm goin to greece in 13 days..for the first time in my life!

ton-ton — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:44:17 GMT

i'm goin to greece in 13 days..for the first time in my life!
i started an oddyssey 2 1/2 years ago from Athens Ohio which is finally taking me to Athens Greece
my family from my mothers side is from Chios..my fathers from the Peloponese
i speak Greek like a pirate..so i'm hoping to find some help from a few freinds and family
i fly into Athens on the 25th..then i want to take a ferry to Antalya Turkey for trhe week long solar eclipse party
after the party i plan to travel thru some of Greece till the 17th of April
i need places people advice and anything else that might help!
thank you!

blisses & blesses!
-t-t-

posted in Greece & Rome - 7 replies

Best leader for Rome

richlowe — Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:36:21 GMT

I would like to have a discussion on who was the best leader of Rome (notice I don't use the word "emperor") and why.

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

Caesar - Tyrant or Man of the People?

spidra — Sat, 24 Sep 2005 05:37:24 GMT

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1565847970/qid=1127539746/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-8928201-4316968?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I started this book some time ago but have been unable to finish it because I have had to move from place to place for the last year and my copy has gotten buried. But however interesting I'd find it, I don't have the grounding in Roman history to read the book with a critical eye towards the author's thesis. Has anyone here read it and have any thoughts to share?

posted in Greece & Rome - 13 replies

Ancient Skeleton Discovered in Rome

Wed, 31 May 2006 16:47:28 GMT

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2021451

(Apparently, these people have never heard of a priestess!)

posted in Greece & Rome - 2 replies

New Tribe: Epic Poems

lady_ba — Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:15:20 GMT

Lets discuss all kinds of Epic Poems here:

http://tribes.tribe.net/epicpoems

Can't wait to start conversations about it ;)

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Rare painted Roman-era statute is found

bobs — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:19:30 GMT

Scientists have found a Roman statue with its colors preserved, detailing for the first time a Roman woman wearing make-up, the London Times reported.

British and Italian archaeologists recovered the head of a female Amazon warrior from the debris of a collapsed escarpment at Herculaneum, a Roman-era Italian resort that was destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 A.D.

Monica Martelli, the archaeological team's restorer, told The Times although the nose and mouth were missing, the hair, pupils and eyelashes were "as pristine as they were when Herculaneum was overwhelmed by the eruption."

"Those eyes are alive, looking at us from 2,000 years ago," Martelli said. "To find this much pigment is very, very special." Although it had been known that Roman statues were painted, only faint traces of pigment had been previously found.

Herculaneum was buried in the same catastrophic eruption that overwhelmed nearby Pompeii. Pompeii was buried in volcanic ash, while Herculaneum became entombed in molten rock.

http://www.physorg.com/news12164.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Gladiator/Gladiatrix

arcangel — Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:24:57 GMT

Hey everyone!
I am currently doing some research into ancient Grecco-Roman times for a Sci-Fi themed book and was looking for links, web sites or books/information concerning Gladiators, Gladiatrixs, schools, the way things really were during the games at the Coliseum in Rome, as well as basically the life & times of what these people went through.
Anyone have any valuable insight/information to help me out?
Much appreciated! Thank you :)

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

Can any one help ...???

Darnis — Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:16:30 GMT

We found in the Anciant History a conection Between the Civilaisation of Both Amazegh in Africa & the Greeks In Europe ....Can any one Help with more details....????

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Hadrian's Villa: new secrets found

bobs — Tue, 07 Feb 2006 07:41:52 GMT

Archeologists digging at Hadrian's Villa north of Rome say they've recovered a monumental staircase complete with huge columns and a giant sphinx.

The stairway was found at what is believed to have been the entrance to the sprawling complex known as the Gymnasium, the Italian news agency ANSA reported Monday. A statue of an athlete and a huge theatrical mask, both in marble, were also found at the site.

"These are extraordinary finds," said Zaccaria Mari, the archaeologist who made the discoveries. "The colored marble on the columns is simply superb, while the sphinx is an amazing work."

Mari said the nearly 28-foot-wide staircase and the statuary were most likely made about 130 A.D., but the eight-foot-long sphinx might be even older.

Hadrian's Villa, a few miles north of Rome at Tivoli, was the largest and richest Imperial Roman villa ever built, ANSA reported. Taking 10 years to construct and consisting of more than 30 buildings, one of the villa's best-preserved parts is a recreation of the famous statue-lined pool shrine at Canopus in Egypt -- one of many memorials to the emperor's boy-lover Antinoos.

http://www.physorg.com/news10585.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

greek wine question

Agape — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 16:45:01 GMT

Hey there tribe folx.
Ive had a question burning in my brain for a few months now.
The greeks describe drinking their wine watered down,and as well describe that severe inhebriation occurs when this isnt done,even with a reference(which i cant find) to a person dieing from this.
This would to me imply that the wine was not simply fermented grapes,and that in some cases other substances were mixed with the wine.
Has anybody here come acros any refereces to wine contents other than grapes in the greco-roman world.Ive also heard of references to honey and sweet lead oxide being mixed in as well, but cant find any solid refereces.
Any data is greatly apreciated
Vale et atque amicis me

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

Roman Calendar

Sat, 24 Dec 2005 02:41:39 GMT

I haven't posted here yet, but thought I'd share this link...

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/romecal.html

Thanks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

the Ancient Egypt tribe

LordXaviar — Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:14:32 GMT

has anyone looked at this... I havent seen so much trash since the early days of the Equirer..... OMG...lol

The latest is that us Euro culture types are putting down the "evidance" of the ET orign of the African peoples...lol
its great stuff it really is...
X

http://tribes.tribe.net/601efff4-855d-4c2a-aef4-dd420199f785

posted in Greece & Rome - 11 replies

Helen of Troy on PBS

talula — Mon, 17 Oct 2005 03:23:38 GMT

Hello, I'm new to this tribe.

Did anyone see the Helen of Troy doc on PBS the other night? I'm just curious to know what people thought of it.

posted in Greece & Rome - 7 replies

Gate of Miletus to be restored

spidra — Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:46:24 GMT

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/10/19/entertainment/e091307D21.DTL&type=art

Hope you don't mind me posting links without much comment. If I were qualified to comment, I would.

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

If balance is the key to the universe, and going with the flow is by all means creative

Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:10:41 GMT

If balance is the key to the universe, and going with the flow is by all means creative, then Icuras misused his spiritual gifts like opening the Pandora’s box by flying to high to his masculinity, and God instead of being one with the universe or unisex meaning one consciousness that of the triangle pointing downward which is the blue planet earth and united with one triangle pointing upward being sun, gold and the spiraling serpent like DNA universe as we are an ecology within as well as without and we are more commonly living in a De Facto world which is not free to access equal trade in the name of thanksgiving itself. Of course blue and gold make green. The Greek word harmos means harmony or unity as well as yoga like kundalini yoga and the medical staff also represent unity of two polarities and no it is not of good and evil uniting it is feminine and masculine and if you separate the two it is death, disease, and evil and end of pro creation other wise its like trying to take an atom which has empty space in it and trying to split it. This does not entitle homosexuals as bad people after all there is homeopathy of like cures like as well.

De Facto means we are very alienated from the truth itself. Lucifer means light bringer like Icuras was as well and anyone who emphasizes the kingdom over the queendom or god over goddess is out of balance. Not only that but Buddha left his kingdom along time ago and attended to a neglected tree where he become one with nature instead of Maya or greed, walls or ego. Buddha is just a Sanskrit word for awaken one and did not identify with I, Me, or My, and when people asked Buddha who’s name given to him was Siddhartha asked him, are you a saint, Buddha said “no”, are you a god, Buddha said “no”, what are you, Buddha said “awaken”. Buddha even emphasized the middle way just like Taoism meaning not to go to either extremes. We are not treated as equals and we should be as a whole which would neutralize things for nobody is more holier then thou if you would only know that if you put all your energy into your brain instead of your liver which can produce natural neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin and also neglect the heart especially then its likely you will suffer.

Also keep in mind mosses as well as the pharaohs handled serpents pretty well, where Moses according Egyptologist say that Moses not only wrapped a live cobra around his turban but also around his staff which is probably how the staff turned into a serpent when he through it down. Also note it may not be actual blood the rivers turned into but a message from the universe saying the water is our bloodstream too and if people went crazy it was probably out of fear. Also know that Moses step mother was Egyptian and royalty and daughter of a corrupt pharaoh some us assume had to be apart of the Set order in which Set was jealous of his brother Osirus which some us could imagine was representing Egypt as a whole and then Set cut Osirus into many peaces until Isis came back and put him back together and then Osiris became Ra just as Israel or Isis Ra el
Could just mean. After all the term reed is both Egyptian and Hebrew meaning the same thing and as the Jews crossed the reed sea God in the first Testament cried for the Egyptians because not only were the Egyptians drowning but because god said they are our children too. Moses step mother saved his life knowing he was Jewish a precious child and threatened anyone who would let her father know or report a Jew after all she was royalty and wanted Moses to become Pharaoh and free the Hebrews that way. In the first testament it says in Leviticus ‘thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian more you were strangers in a strange land.”

Even the Jewish Kabala says we can repair the vessel meaning returning to Eden,
Purify ourselves in the water or goddess which is formless as in the Mikve and attend to Yom Kippur to apologize to god for controlling the free will of other people which the universe granted so we would become human instead of robots. Also nobody can judge but God according to Hebrew text and also saying to do unto others as you would have them do to you. Also on Yom Kippur don’t forget to apologize to those you harmed and remember never to expect anything back after all isn’t giving better then receiving other wise it’s just selfish and you want to have power over the person. Jesus cursed a fig tree because it didn’t have any fruit left which is evident in the second testament and is very selfish because he was not only angry but was not concerned about the sick, hungry poor, children and dying who needed it eventually after all didn’t jesus knew to fast and how unkosher it is to harm a tree that has fruit and teach his followers to do the same in the power of the word which is all hatred being preached.

After all doesn’t Messiah means he who prevents war, famine and plague and how is it that christianity in which jesus is not really Christ which is Greek for anointed one when we were divided by kingdom from queendom as well and even when there were queens around where was there a goddess and passivity respected by them unless you want to trace back to Egyptian history. These so-called christians cursed snakes and killed them when snakes were excellent preys on rodents in order to keep the ecology balanced and from preventing plague. Well monkeys have natural birth control pills in some rainforest and are vegetarian unless they sometimes eat insects which you would have to know more about and also know that certain leaves monkeys eat are dangerous to humans and green tea leaves have to be steam distilled first in order to be anti-cancerous otherwise if you don’t steam distill it you will not extract the enzyme that causes cancer instead of being provided by the enzyme that gets rid of cancer which stays in the green tea leaf after we steam distil it.

Evidence that the christians were the cause of the biggest genocide conspiracy in history starting the bubonic plague and racially discriminating, enslaving and burning eco tribes, or pagans, and Jews including there farm animals at the stake. Jews were also accused of being cannibles by the church which is hard to believe and if that’s the case I really doubt Druids were cannibles too which the church aslo claimed.

Jews and eco tribes, or pagans would have a shamanic communion with, owls, snakes, hawks, cats and other animals to attract them and prevent plagues by having them hunt rodents. Anyone who questioned the church about why the church would accuse these animals of being possessed by the devil would be accused of being a witch and burned with the animals such as cats and other farm animals. The Bubonic plague killed more people then World War 1 and World War 2. Jews were exiled out of Spain by the pope and forced to put on distinctive clothes so that nobody would sell them food including their children. Bloodletting was a practice in which the people sucking out the poison were accused of being vampires. After all if you know someone who is bitten by a snake you suck out the poison and spit it out meaning their blood too. These people were literally taking on the suffering of other people. Using leaches was also another technique in which M.D.’s are using today to drain the poison out of victims or use the saliva of the leach, which has certain enzymes in the saliva to counteract osteoporosis. The human mouth is the least part to get infected because there are so many anti-bodies in it and if the person feels compassionate, there hearts will stimulate imunoglobin A in their saliva.

There is a story of Icarus who flew to close to the sun, meaning being to masculine or overly Yang instead of yin, went to extremes and lost balance and connection with his feminism or the goddess.

Because poor establishment
Poor pre-production as well as in movies
Not thinking about the consequences
What it takes to fund it.
The greed that contributes to selfishness, genocide, poverty, and theft in so many ways
Poor blue prints

Will for sure collapse
If the roots are not deep enough in the
Earth the tree like people will fall in unexpected bad weather
Like global warming
Please also look deep enough to know the cause of suffering

If you would have not suspected New Orleans was flooded by global warming and half the national guard that was there to help them left along time ago to fight the war for more oil which is contributing to more global warming and also the ford company banned or some how pushed out our big opportunity to buy electrical cars.

Remember people Greenpeace
Earth First
Amnesty international
Citizen’s commission on human rights
Jewish coalition for religious freedom
Animal rights
Jewish organic kosher herbalogy
Kosher trees which are those that have fruit and not to be cut down otherwise its very unkosher
Speak to trees
Tribal rights www.survival-international.org
Nomads, which some Jews may still be before they settled for agriculture.

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Secret of Delphi Found in Ancient Text

djapollo2k — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 02:12:26 GMT

Secret of Delphi Found in Ancient Text

Researchers at the University of Leicester have unravelled a 2,700 year old mystery concerning The Oracle of Delphi – by consulting an ancient farmer’s manual.

The researchers from the School of Archaeology and Ancient History sought to explain how people from across Greece came to consult with the Oracle – a hotline to the god Apollo- on a particular day of the year even though there was no common calendar.

Now their findings, published in this month’s edition of the journal Antiquity, suggests celestial signs observed by farmers could also have determined the rituals associated with Apollo Delphinios

Postgraduate student Alun Salt said: “The manual, Works and Days by Hesiod, dating to the eight century BC, describes the right time to plant crops or harvest by observing a variety of signs. One particular event he frequently looked for was the heliacal rising of a star, its first appearance that year in the morning sky.

“I was playing around with a planisphere while suffering from insomnia. This is when I noticed that the constellation Delphinus would have been rising in the eastern sky in late December and early January. This is the same time that some cities were sacrificing to Apollo Delphinios.

“I wondered if ritual events could use the same system described by Hesiod. The problem was that January wasn’t the time Apollo Delphinios was questioned at Delphi. Delphi was a month late compared to other cities. I knew the cliffs at Delphi would delay the rising of Delphinus there, but I didn’t know by how much.”

Efrosyni Boutsikas, a fellow postgraduate at Leicester, had surveyed Delphi as part of her PhD and had the figures. She said: “The temple of Apollo at Delphi is overlooked by huge cliffs to the east. These block out the view of the lower part of the eastern sky. The horizon is so high the stars have to climb a long way before they are visible just before sunrise.

“This means that if you’re holding an early morning ritual like preparing to consult Apollo, and you want to see a constellation, you have to wait around a month after other cities with flat horizons.”

Alun Salt concluded; “The great advantage that constellation spotting has over waiting for the sun to rise over a stone is that this system is portable. It could be used by Greeks across the Mediterranean who wanted to know when to visit Delphi without having to rely on knowing what the local date was in Delphi’s calendar. It also explains why Delphi’s calendar is slightly out of step with calendars in places like Athens.”

Does this make Delphi a Greek Stonehenge? Could this event still be seen by visitors today? Alun Salt is doubtful: “The event still happens, about a month later these days because of the way the Earth’s movement in the heavens has changed since ancient times. The big problem is light pollution. The stars of Delphinus are quite faint. You won’t see them from Athens, and I don’t know if the sky around Delphi is dark enough to make them out. It’s a challenge for anyone at Delphi around the start of February.

The findings are published in this month’s edition of the archaeological journal Antiquity.

http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/physik_astronomie/bericht-49251.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 2 replies

Atlantis! Found!

franceschina — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:14 GMT

Yeah, right. I get so tired of this discourse, this unending search for the physical remains of a freakin' METAPHOR! Can't these people be content that they discovered a city?

Last night, I had just been thinking about Atlantis and what is one of the most damning pieces of evidence against the existence of a real city. My suggestion is that since Atlantis is ONLY mentioned in one ancient text (one pre-modern text, period), there is really no reason to believe that it existed. Don't you think that Herodotus, Strabo SOMEONE else would have mentioned a lost city, just for the sake of a good story about a destroyed place? There are a number of mentions of Helike, an ancient city that actually existed and WAS destroyed in an earthquake/flood. Seems like for 2200 years, everyone else understood Atlantis as a metaphor. Why is that so HARD?

Oh, right. Here's the URL for the article about the discovery:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/14/cyprus.atlantis.ap/index.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 93 replies

History channels Rome

Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:44:08 GMT

I have been watching the series this week. How accurate have they been?

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Colleen McCullough

anca — Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:30:24 GMT

I'm currently obsessed with her "Masters of Rome" series, having just finished "Ceasar's Women". Anyone want to chat about this?

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

Sybaris & Magna Graecia

spidra — Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:01:14 GMT

I just saw a Chron article about a
Chicago band called "Sybris". They were named after Sybaris. I never
encountered the word "sybaritic" until late in college and had no idea
that it had such an etymology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris

I'm particularly shocked to read that the rage of Crotona was such
that they'd shift the course of a river just to erase Sybaris "They
razed Sybaris to the ground and turned the waters of Crathis to flow
over its ruins in 510 BC." Although I had a great childhood interest
in Greek mythology, there's just a magnitude of stuff I don't know
about ancient Greece.

I've been googling around this afternoon (sneaking it in dull moments at work) but I'm not finding a lot of detail on Sybaris. Does anyone here have any expertise? Or do you know of good links? (I'm afraid I'm full up with work and a class right now so I won't be visiting the library anytime soon.)

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Greek and Roman movies

franceschina — Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:12:02 GMT

I'm going to have a series of movie nights this semester for my students. I'm going to type up a list of 'talking points' for each movie--really just things for them to think about while watching. I want to show maybe 5 or 6 throughout the semester. I'll have to include Gladiator and Alexander. Troy would be outside the scope of my course as we're not doing Bronze Age material. I'll probably have to do Spartacus as well, although it's very long and kind of dull.

What are your favorite movies about Greece and Rome?

posted in Greece & Rome - 24 replies

Procopius' 'The Secret History'

Jesse — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:47:55 GMT

My copy is the Penguin Classics, and I'm somewhat dubious about the translation, done by G.A. Williamson in the 60s. Can anyone recommend a better translation, or reassure me about this one?

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Emperor's Head Found in Sewer

spidra — Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:28:16 GMT

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/07/28/entertainment/e102957D30.DTL

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

new tribe: Pagan Scholars

khrysso — Sat, 25 Jun 2005 02:19:39 GMT

I've started a new tribe with a very narrow focus: Pagan Scholars.

If you feel comfortable with things like documentation and footnotes and academic rigor, you may be interested in joining...

tribes.tribe.net/paganscholars

This is a moderated tribe.

See you there?

Rev. Khrysso Heart LeFey
Master of Theological Studies
The Iliff School of Theology class of 2002
Director of Liturgical Music Studies
The Pagan Institute, Inc.

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Etruria

Meka — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:04:54 GMT

New Tribe: Etruria!

Come and waffle on with us about this enigmatic, indigenous civilization.
Mythology, Language, Archaeology, Sex - everything. We've got it!

etruria.tribe.net

posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

museum curator indicted

franceschina — Sat, 21 May 2005 14:58:41 GMT

Marion True, head curator of antiquities at the Getty Museum in Malibu, CA, has just been indicted in Italy for illegal antiquities smuggling. Technically, the charges are "criminal conspiracy to receive stolen goods and illicit receipt of archeological items."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0505200358may20,1,5722279.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

This is pretty huge. The Getty has done quite a lot of shady dealings in the past and dealt with shady persons. Witness the Getty kouros. So this would not be the first time that fake papers, etc., were drawn up to facilitate the Museum's acquisition of antiquities.

I've actually met Marion True, the indicted curator. As much as I respect her research and love the Getty Museum, someone needs to be made an example of. The illegal antiquites trade must be stopped.

Here's a link to the statue of Aprhodite mentioned in the article:
http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/objects/oz15050.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Sallust & Us

Anat — Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:20:39 GMT

hi everybody,

i'm reading now Sallust's "Coniuratio Catilinae", & i just reached a part that seems to me relevant to our time as well. I would like to share it with you. First, some background: "Coniuratio Catilinae" (The Conspiracy of Catiline) is a historical piece written after J. Caesar's death (45 BC), which symbolizes to many people the end of the Roman independent republic. It describes Catiline's attempt to become a dictator (63 BC), several years before Caesar actually did. Although this conspiracy was frustrated by Cicero, it showed how problematic and instable the social structure in Rome already was.

The following part is taken from a speech made in the assembly of the senate by M. Porcius Cato, a young man known for his uncompromised moral standards. The aim of the entire discussion is to decide on what should be done with those of the conspirators that have already been caught.
I appologize for any mistakes in the translation (it is mine, & free).

Salust. Cat. 52. 19-23:

Don't think that our ancestors made a great republic from a small one because of their arms. Had it been so, the republic today would be far more excellent. There are greater means in our posession than in theirs, certainly of allies and citizens, beyond that, of arms and horses. However, there were other things that made them great, that we lack: hard work in Rome, just administration abroad, a free spirit when taking counsel, neither guilty of crime, nor driven by irrational impulses. Instead of those we have luxury and greed, public poverty, private riches; we praise wealth, we seek laziness; there is no discrimination between the good and the bad; The desire for office gets all of the rewards of virtue. No wonder: when every one of you has his own interests im mind while taking counsel, when you serve your desires at home, money and popularity here, this is why it happens, that the republic, being vulnerable, is attacked.

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

Classical Studies on CDs

Jon — Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:00:17 GMT

Hey all,

I bought a 12-CD set of lectures on Ancient Greek Civ, and it seems pretty good, but I was just wondering if you guys knew of any other similar stuff out there.
The one I got was from The Teaching Company.
I know you really can't cover a whole civilization with just 12 lecture hours, but it seems like a good way for someone new to get introduced to a big topic like that.
Do you guys know of some audio stuff out there on the ancient civs?

posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

Laocoon by Michelangelo?

franceschina — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:17:25 GMT

A new article in the NYT reports on an article by a Columbia U. prof. who thinks the Laocoon might actually be by Michelangelo. I'm tracking down her article, but here is the NYT one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/18/arts/design/18laoc.html?pagewanted=print&position=

posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

Just a little anecdote

spidra — Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:35:23 GMT

While searching the SF Chronicle's archives for something on another topic, I came across this garden article with a nice classical anecdote or two:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/HOGDOB70PU1.DTL

In 401 B.C., Xenophon of Athens, one of Socrates' students, marched off to back the wrong contender in a Persian civil war, and had to lead a retreat through hostile territory. He wrote a best-seller about it, the "Anabasis." (You can find the translation, quoted below, by H. G. Dakyns online, courtesy of Project Gutenberg, at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/xenophon-anabasis.html#Project%20Gutenberg.) One prominent adventure was not a battle, but the commandeering of a village from which their opponents had fled.

"Here, generally speaking, there was nothing to excite their wonderment, but the numbers of bee-hives were indeed astonishing, and so were certain properties of the honey. The effect upon the soldiers who tasted the combs was, that they all went for the nonce quite off their heads, and suffered from vomiting and diarrhoea, with a total inability to stand steady on their legs. A small dose produced a condition not unlike violent drunkenness, a large one an attack very like a fit of madness, and some dropped down, apparently at death's door. So they lay, hundreds of them, as if there had been a great defeat, a prey to the cruellest despondency. But the next day, none had died; and almost at the same hour of the day at which they had eaten they recovered their senses, and on the third or fourth day got on their legs again like convalescents after a severe course of medical treatment."

Centuries later, in the same region, the army of Pompey the Great of Rome was ambushed by the forces of Mithridates VI of Pontus, to worse effect. After helping themselves to honeycombs left along their route, a troop of Pompey's soldiers succumbed to similar symptoms and were massacred while helplessly intoxicated. Pompey went on to win that conflict eventually, nevertheless.

Mithridates himself had a reputation as a ruthless killer and poisoner, but his claim to fame lay in his method of immunizing himself against poison: gradually increasing doses of every poison known at the time. (One has to wonder about this, as some poisons are cumulative.) The poison in the honeycombs that laid Pompey and Xenophon's soldiers low is known today, one of the all-natural products of what A.E. Housman, in his poem on the subject, calls "the many-venomed earth."

It's known as "mad honey": "deli balin Turkey, "miel fouin Western Europe. Tiny doses of it in milk or spirits are taken in the region around the Black Sea as a tonic, something to make one reflect on the elasticity of that term. And the reason it's toxic in larger amounts is its raw material. Bees make it from the nectar of Rhododendron ponticum, the large pale-purple-flowered species native there.

More recent cases of mad honey disease are known from the region and as far east as Nepal, and from Europe, where a rash of them was traced to souvenir honey from Turkey. It's still unusual because it's rare that bees get only rhodie flowers to make honey from, so the poison is diluted enough to make it harmless. Other rhodie and related species are known to contain the active ingredient, grayanotoxin, formerly called andromedotoxin or rhodotoxin. Our local native azalea and rhodie species, R. occidentale and R. macrophyllum, contain it and so does Kalmia latifolia, the mountain laurel of the Appalachians.

<snip>

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

rome and a broken foot

mrpadro — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:50:21 GMT

yay for me i broke my foot yesterday and im going to rome next week..help me out here... i never been there before but would like to see something very accessable.. whatever it is im not picky

posted in Greece & Rome - 3 replies

'Alexander' movie & homosexuality

franceschina — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:33:14 GMT

A couple of new articles are examining the role of homosexuality in Oliver Stone's new Alexander the Great film. Stone's response to this criticism is pretty naive, chalking up the acceptance of homosexuality in the fourth century to "pre-Christian values" rather than the much older social construct of men's "mentorship" of boys in Athenian culture.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6134129/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6234210/
http://uk.gay.com/headlines/6933

posted in Greece & Rome - 11 replies

Omma

marinaomi — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:11:11 GMT

Has anyone heard of an art gallery in Crete called Omma? I'm trying to figure out how to determine if this is a legit business.

Here is their web site: www.omma.gr

Thanks!

M

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Recommended translations

mark1000 — Mon, 08 Nov 2004 21:49:44 GMT

Hi all,

Can anyone recommend a good translation of Herodotus? I'm particularly looking for a good annotated edition, with distance conversions, maps, etc.

Any other translation recommendations are also appreciated.

For myself, I really enjoyed Rex Warner's translation of Ceasar's Commentaries. I like his plainspoken style. I also liked his prose translation of the Iliad, though I understand Feagles' poetic translation is considered better.

Does anyone know of resources that compare and contrast various translations of classic works?

Thanks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

American Gladiators

Tamara — Tue, 09 Nov 2004 22:07:01 GMT

I'm sure Chuck Heston would approve. The rest of us ... well, check it out.

From Classics-L list:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20041106/450IRAQ_BLOWING_OFF_STEAM_ANS111_620516006112004.jpg

U.S. Marines of the 1st Division dressed as gladiators stage a chariot race reminiscent of the Charlton Heston movie -- complete with confiscated Iraqi horses -- at their base outside Fallujah, Iraq. For U.S. Marines tapped to lead an expected attack on insurgent-held Fallujah, the bags have been packed, trucks have been loaded and final letters have been sent, leaving one final task -- the "Ben-Hur." (AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus) (November 06, 2004)

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

QTVRs of Alexander movie

franceschina — Sun, 07 Nov 2004 23:30:32 GMT

Very nice! Check them out--although they are full of anachronisms and errors. There are views of the palace at Babylon and the Library at Alexandria.

http://alexanderthemovie.warnerbros.com/qtvr/palace_h_view1.htm

posted in Greece & Rome - 4 replies

new Herodotus website

franceschina — Sat, 06 Nov 2004 19:01:08 GMT

www.losttrails.com

An educational multi-media web site and our main activity is the 'Herodotus Project'. The Herodotus project is a free serialized new translation of the Greek historian Herodotus along with extensive photography of the locations and artifacts mentioned in the book. With this resource a student of history can explore the text visually while reading it. This project aims to eventually have as complete a pictorial record as possible of the sites mentioned by Herodotus. This is a multi-year effort which is only realizable on the internet. We update the website monthly with newly translated text and a photographic essay of a site mentioned by Herodotus.

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

the election

franceschina — Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:51:06 GMT

So I jotted off an email to my advisor this morning, explaining that I hadn't done much work this past week because I had been volunteering for the Kerry campaign and now I'm so upset about the election results that I haven't felt motivated. My advisor has become a friend as well as my professor. I just wanted to share what he wrote back about the election, in his usual SHOUTING CAPS:

"RESULTS EASY TO EXPLAIN. GOD CHOSE THE PRESIDENT, MUCH AS JUPITER CHOSE TRAJAN (OR SO TRAJAN SAID)."

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

the marble plan

franceschina — Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:15:47 GMT

New article out on the Severan 'Forma Urbis' in the New Scientist

"HEADLINE: Rebuilding Rome;
The pieces of an ancient archaeological puzzle are falling into place
to reveal the secrets of the imperial city says Erica Klarreich

BYLINE: Erica Klarreich; Erica Klarreich is a science writer in
Berkeley, California

BODY:
IN 1562, workers in a vineyard near Rome unearthed some ancient
marble fragments. They were pieces of the Severan Marble Plan, a
detailed map of Rome created in the 3rd century AD. Those fragments,
together with others that emerged in later centuries, are the most
important topographical record of ancient Rome, and they date to the
pinnacle of the empire's power. They are an unrivalled archaeological
treasure.

The problem is, no one knows how to fit most of the surviving pieces
together. "It's like a puzzle where the puzzle-maker sells it to you
without a picture on the box," says Bernard Frischer, a classicist at
the University of California, Los Angeles. "You have thousands of
fragments to join up, but you don't know what you are aiming for."

Yet help may now be at hand. Over the last few months, a team at
Stanford University in California claims to have made huge progress
in fitting together pieces of the Severan Marble Plan. This heralds a
major leap forward for anyone who wants to understand what ancient
Rome was really like. "It's recreating the Rome of the Roman empire,
which is a fantastic thing," says Peter Barber, head of map
collections at the British Library in London.

It is no ordinary jigsaw puzzle. Created for the emperor Septimius
Severus between AD 203 and 211, the Severan Marble Plan was carved
into marble slabs and mounted onto a wall in the Temple of Peace just
north-east of the old Roman Forum. It was over 18 metres wide and
more than four storeys, or 13 metres, tall. It depicted the entire
city, which covered several square kilometres, and was bounded not by
administrative boundaries but, like a page in a modern atlas, by the
available space and the chosen scale of 1 to 240. It shows Rome in
immense detail, right down to the individual rooms, staircases and
even columns of the ancient city.

Sadly, less than 15 per cent of the original map survives, in around
1200 pieces. Some 250 of them were put in their correct places by
Renaissance scholars and those who followed them, mainly because they
recognised the outlines of Rome's most famous buildings. But for the
last hundred years there has been little progress on the rest. "The
residue are the hardest bits, the pieces that scholars have been
trying for a long time to join, and couldn't," says Fischer.

By the late 1990s, placing a single piece was viewed as a major
breakthrough. "Putting in a new piece was worth an article, and
putting in 10 pieces could get you a professorship," says Elizabeth
Fentress, an independent scholar and archaeologist based in Rome.
Even so, not many people worked on the problem. Many of the surviving
pieces are gigantic marble chunks weighing several hundred kilograms.
Attempting to fit them together is physically as well as mentally
exhausting.

The Stanford team set out to try and change this. Their project began
when Marc Levoy, an expert in the use of laser scanning to create
digital models of three-dimensional objects, became interested in the
Severan Marble Plan. Levoy had already used laser scanning to create
a 3D image of Michelangelo's David , and he realised the same
technology could be used to make a model of the Severan pieces. Once
this was done, Levoy reasoned, scholars could play with the pieces
and fit them together virtually. And perhaps jigsaw-puzzle solving
algorithms might be able to see fits that had eluded the human eye.

In 1999, Levoy's team went to Rome and made high-resolution scans of
every nook and cranny of the whole collection. A digital file was
created for each piece describing every detail of its shape and
surface. The final dataset contained more than 8 billion geometric
shapes, totalling 40 gigabytes of information.

At first glance, the most obvious approach to joining the pieces was
try to match them together by shape as if they were part of a
traditional jigsaw puzzle. But this turned out to be impossible. As
the Roman empire began to disintegrate in the 5th century, the
Severan Marble Plan was abandoned. Many marble slabs were probably
removed and used to build walls, or ended up buried. By the time
pieces resurfaced in the vineyard over a thousand years later, many
of their edges were worn.

So David Koller, one of Levoy's students in computer science, decided
instead to focus on the equivalent of the picture on the jigsaw
puzzle -- the map itself. Unfortunately, outside the main
archaeological sites, little is known of ancient Rome, so not much
could be achieved by comparing the pieces to existing ruins. But they
could be compared to each other.

The incisions on the marble surface sketch out the walls of theatres,
alleyways and monuments. Different features are represented by
different kinds of line. For example, a thick line is often an
external wall, while a row of dots shows a row of columns. Wide, wavy
incisions are aqueducts, and small triangles with lateral notches
represent staircases. Before the team turned the computer loose on
the models, Tina Najbjerg, an archaeology research fellow at
Stanford, fed in information about what kind of feature was
represented by each type of line.

The computer measured the angles between lines that reached the outer
edge of a fragment, then searched for lines of the same type at the
same angle on other fragments. This way, it could spot associations
between fragments even where their connecting surfaces were chipped
or eroded away.

Koller's algorithm produced many dozens of possible matches. But he
could see that several were not true matches just by looking at them.
So to winnow down the possibilities further, he introduced a second
set of checks. Marble has veins of different colours which form a
grain, so it should be possible to identify fragments broken off from
the same original slab. Also, some of the fragments have holes in
them made by the clamps that fixed the original slabs to the wall of
the Temple of Peace. Because the researchers know where the clamps
were on the wall, the clamp holes give them clues to the location of
some of the pieces.

Numerous matches came up based on these criteria, but the team wanted
to ensure they were correct. In June 2003, they went back to Rome to
physically test them. Although erosion makes this hard, there is
often a good fit between at least some parts of adjoining pieces. "It
is very satisfying when you pick up the pieces in your hands and feel
them lock together," Koller says. The result was two confirmed
matches. The team were able to confirm another 10 by visually
comparing the grain and incisions on the pieces.

Finding a match

The Stanford team has announced these findings at several
conferences, and have submitted them for publication. As well as the
12 matches they feel confident about, they have presented more than
30 other possibles. "It was met with unanimous acceptance. I heard
nothing but applause and compliments on the team's work," says
Frischer. And these findings are only the beginning. "They have
speeded up the process exponentially," says Fentress. "It's a really
spectacular advance."

Koller has spent a long time going through the hundreds of potential
matches the computer has churned out, verifying them by eye. "It
doesn't seem so bad compared to the hundreds of thousands of
possibilities the computer search is culling out," he says. But
Barber warns that lines that seem to match may be deceptive. "I think
you have to be pretty careful. Lots of things will apparently fit,"
he says. "The only way you can do it is by shape and context and what
you know about the structure of Roman buildings."

Scholars are still examining the new matches to find out what they
say about ancient Rome. One feature the map brings to light is the
apparent lack of differences between neighbourhoods, says Trimble, a
Stanford classicist who co-directs the project with Levoy. "No matter
where we look on the map, we see a mix of wealthy and poor
residences, and a mix of shops and private spaces," she says. The
wealthy houses are easy to identify, because they show features like
internal courtyards, gardens surrounded by columns, entrance halls
and reception rooms. Buildings with long corridors are apartments
where poorer people lived. This intermingling illustrates the city's
patronage system, in which poor people depended on the favours of a
powerful patron, and offered their services in return. Tradition
dictated that a patron's dependants visited every day, so they had to
live nearby. "The focus of living was organised not by socioeconomic
separation but by hierarchical relationships," Trimble says.

To Koller the most exciting possibility arising from the new matches
is the chance to find out about Rome's suburbs. "We know so much
about the Colosseum from other sources, but what we don't know is the
life of the man on the street," he says. "He lived off in some
shanty, on an alley on the other side of the Tiber from the
monuments." It is almost impossible to excavate these regions. "You
can't just go and dig up someone's home," Koller says. "In the
outlying parts of the city, the map is our only clue to what is out
there."

Sometimes fitting a piece is the only way to be sure what it is
depicting. One of the new matches seemed to show two rows of rooms
with a passage between them, but there was no way to tell whether the
picture represented a street with shops or a warehouse with storage
bins coming off a central passageway. Koller's algorithm located the
fragment near others that showed part of the Tiber. "There are lots
of warehouses by the river," Koller says. "That means we can say with
very high confidence that it is a warehouse."

Koller is now trying to find a way to integrate human expertise and
computer algorithms. Knowledge of the topography and population
distribution of ancient Rome may lead to new proposals for
matches. "For example, if a fragment has lots of staircases, scholars
know it is from a very dense part of the city where they need
multilevel buildings," Koller says. "They will know it doesn't belong
in a region where the Romans could build out instead of up."

He is hoping to build a computer program that would allow scholars to
move pieces around online, reflecting their own knowledge, while the
program indicates whether attempts are favoured geometrically or not.

The team are also pursuing the idea of fitting the edges of the
pieces together in a way that takes account of erosion. One idea is
to convert each fragment edge into a string of numbers that
correspond to the changes in angle along it. Doing this would enable
the team to implement the type of string-matching algorithms used by
Google and the Human Genome Project, which work well even if there
are gaps in the strings -- in this case caused by erosion. "I think
we will find some new matches this way," Koller says.

But even if the map itself is deciphered, there is still one question
that remains elusive. Why did the Romans make the map in the first
place? It couldn't have been to help people find their way around the
city; most of the map's features are unlabelled and the top parts
would have been more than 12 metres off the ground. In addition,
carving a map in marble is fairly impractical, because the city would
have evolved even as the map was being carved. "If you carve
something in marble you really fix it in time," says Barber.

So the Severan Marble Plan was probably a showpiece, meant to
commemorate the city and perhaps to advertise the abilities of the
surveyor and the emperor's omnipotence. "It's a visual power play
that says: 'We have extraordinary information both about public and
private spaces...The imperial eye can map the city,'" Fentress
suggests. "If so, then the Severan marble fragments are not only a
window on ancient Rome but a key to understanding the mind of one of
history's most powerful emperors."

posted in Greece & Rome - 6 replies

digital Pompeii

franceschina — Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:37:02 GMT

http://sanfrancisco.tribe.net/tribe/servlet/template/pub%2Ctribes%2CViewThread.vm?threadid=7fb73a7e-5b6a-4bd4-a957-334dfa57c768&_message_resource=info.post.created&tribeid=f5f3e740-af94-4533-a7f4-e87267b8eae2

Discussing a new project using rendered digital images to reconstruct Pompeii.

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

The Passion of the Christ

franceschina — Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:13:33 GMT

It's a teensy bit of old news, this film, but I thought some of you might be interested in this:

"Dr. Andrea Berlin and Dr. Jodi Magness have both seen The Passion of the Christ, and have authored a commentary on the film from an archaeological perspective.

Mel Gibson's movie The Passion of the Christ is hardly a historical documentary. As the director himself asserts, and reviewers, religious leaders, and audience members agree, the movie is designed to bring to vivid life the nature and magnitude of Jesus’ sacrifice – an issue of theology rather than history. We are not theologians, but rather archaeologists specializing in the material remains and history of Roman Palestine. As such, we can not speak to the movie’s moral message, or even to the aesthetic or cinematic vision of the director. Some viewers may wonder, however, about the historical accuracy with which events and their settings are depicted. For those who are curious about Gibson’s fidelity to ancient sources, we offer the following information."

Go to this link for the article in PDF form:
http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10243

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

From Armchair Historians

Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:43:25 GMT

http://atlanta.tribe.net/thread/968963a1-bb7c-4dc8-a9f2-07c561d00f07?tribeid=f5f3e740-af94-4533-a7f4-e87267b8eae2&r=10394

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

owning antiquity

franceschina — Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:07:12 GMT

Another tribe member and I were discussing the issue of buying ancient artifacts for one's own personal collection. I thought it would be good to bring the discussion to this tribe.

What are your thoughts on owning antiquity?
Does it matter where you buy the objects?
Is there a credible link between the antiquities trade and illegal excavation and exportation?
Is the selling of "multiples" a legitimate way to avoid an illicit trade in antiquities?
What compels you to own a "piece of history"?

posted in Greece & Rome - 51 replies

what the media finds newsworthy

franceschina — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:26:37 GMT

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26cid%3D624%26ncid%3D753%26e%3D3%26u%3D/ap/20041001/ap_on_sc/greece_ancient_pomegranates

It's odd that a story like this makes headlines. It's a cool find, but not unique.

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

archaeological destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan

franceschina — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:39:51 GMT

Here are two pages with links from the AIA website with a lot of (depressing) information about the state of archaeology and site preservation in Iraq and Afghanistan:

http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10129

http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10242

The stories about the Kabul and Baghdad museums are particularly depressing.

posted in Greece & Rome - 2 replies

Greek Pomegranite 2500 yrs old

Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:51:03 GMT

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&e=1&u=/ap/greece_ancient_pomegranates

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

Introducing blog on classical art and culture

Tamara — Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:09:10 GMT

I would like to invite everyone in the tribe to check out my blog on classical art and culture. It's more of a bibliophile's approach to the subject, so most of the discussion will be on books and authors. I'm new to the blog world, so please be gentle:

http://unravishedbride.blogspot.com/

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

archaeology lectures

franceschina — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:28:34 GMT

The American Institute of Archaeology has published a list of the lectures scheduled to take place all around the US this year:

http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10050

Shameless plug:
For those of you in Sacramento, I will be giving a lecture in late September. I'm also speaking at the AIA's annual meeting in Boston--a must-attend event for Classical history/art/archaeology/literature geeks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

Myceneans: WTF?

hjioumlautrds — Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:21:45 GMT

I recently bought a book from the used bookstore which purported to educate me about the Myceneans, which happens to be a huge gaping hole in my understanding of ancient, crude civilizations. So imagine my disappointment when I discovered this book went into great detail about archealogical sites, particular artifacts discovered, even a layer-by-layer accound of certain digs, but did not tell me ANYTHING about Mycenean culture, history, social structure, economy, relationship to their contemporary neighbors or daily life of a typical Mycenean inhabitant.

I suppose this could just as well be a rant about atrocious academic/ anthropologial writing styles and the people who write glowing reviews of them.

Can someone enlighten me a bit about what was up with Mycenea? WTF? Any books to reccomend?

posted in Greece & Rome - 10 replies

Industrial Revolution

Jordan — Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:40:19 GMT

Alright, my head's spinning. Let's try a new thread. The question is, if the Roman Empire hadn't fallen, would they have had an industrial revolution?

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

get things rolling...

franceschina — Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:12:16 GMT

Well, I'm teaching a class this semester on Greek & Roman art. To try to get this tribe active, I'll put forth the question that I'm giving my students on their final exam essay:
Is Roman art totally derivative of Greek art?

posted in Greece & Rome - 25 replies

Gladiator

Lisa — Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:07:31 GMT

As opposed to Troy (which I have no desire to see...Sorry, I couldn't even read your thread on it Francesca...I read too many translations of the Iliad in college)...I really wanted to see Gladiator and I really enjoyed it. Any other fans?

posted in Greece & Rome - 6 replies

Troy

franceschina — Mon, 17 May 2004 18:19:03 GMT

I saw the movie last night. I realized that I really should have tried harder to just enjoy it as a movie and not an actual illustration of Homer! It was actually pretty good, but dragged in some spots.

Since I don't like Brad Pitt very much, he made a perfect Achilles--a hero everyone has a hard time celebrating. What a prick. Peter O'Toole made an insane-looking Priam, but did a nice job of the "give my Hector back to me" scene. The Helen actress was pretty hot, but maybe had only a "face that launched 100 ships" instead of the usual 1000.

Naturally, there are changes to the Homeric story. They couldn't stretch out the movie to cover all 10 years of battle. I was shocked to see that the gods are pretty much totally written out, as is Hecuba. Briseis is given a pretty hefty role. One major change that pissed me off is the fate that befalls Agamemnon--I won't say, since I know not everyone is a goober like me and sees the movie in the opening weekend! There is a major cheeseball moment at the end of the movie between Paris and Aeneas. The unnamed Trojan priest (meant to be Laokoon?) looked freakishly like Septimius Severus.

Visually, the sets look like Minoan palaces, decorated with a syncretic bunch of Egyptian, Hittite, and Archaic Greek motifs. Other than that, I didn't notice too many egregious anachronisms. The costumes are interesting. I don't know much about Anatolian or Bronze Age armor--not sure if it is something well-documented at all--but it all looked very ANE. Whoopie! The saddles have no stirrups! They got that right. More turquoise jewelry than at an Indian casino gift shop.

Ack, there are scores of other "problems" with the movie, but I would love to hear what the rest of you have to say about it and not ruin it for you!

posted in Greece & Rome - 13 replies

The Roman Army

AndrewBWatt — Sat, 08 May 2004 16:20:17 GMT

Hi, all. This is my first post.

I'm trying to figure out roughly how many patricians were usually in the officer corps of an average, theoretical legion of 5000 men. I realize this isn't a terribly easy question to answer simply, but I'm trying to help out a ninth grader on his term paper, and he needs a fairly concise answer.

Also, I'm trying to get a sense of how many engineers, surveyors and 'technical support personnel' might be attached to a legion in its road-building capacity.

Thanks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

advertising and the eternal city

franceschina — Sat, 19 Jun 2004 16:36:33 GMT

ome's best monuments disappearing behind ads as city cleans up
peeling palazzi and flaking frescoes

Sophie Arie in Rome
Sunday May 30, 2004

The Observer

Little did the Roman workers who built the Pantheon imagine that their giant temple would still be standing 2,000 years later. They certainly could never have imagined it draped with Versace models and glistening BMWs.
But now, as the Rome authorities search for funds to keep the Eternal City in good repair, some of the world's most famous brands are eyeing the Pantheon, one of Rome's oldest and most visited monuments. They want to use its walls as advertising space.

The authorities have signed a deal with a billboard firm to pay for the Pantheon and 48 other treasures to be smartened up. They say they have no other option.

Although Italy is one of the most artistically rich countries in the world, and tourism one of the country's greatest financial assets, its Cultural Goods Ministry has a smaller proportion of the budget than equivalent ministries in France and Germany.

'We have the world's largest (cultural) heritage, but the resources of a Third World (country),' Culture Minister Giulio Urbani recently complained.

Advertising has already tempted authorities to less well-known sites. A quick tour of Rome shows that one giant advert is attached to almost every landmark. In the old market square, Campo dei Fiori, a huge pistachio-green Vespa moped is riding across the front of one building, reminding potential buyers that 'even the wind likes to be caressed'.

Off the square, a giant baby wearing a leopard-skin nappy is
promoting Radio Monte Carlo. A BMW estate car looms large where the Trinita dei Monti church ought to be at the top of the Spanish Steps.
A hundred yards from the balcony where Mussolini addressed the crowds in Piazza Venezia, there is a huge lollipop message from L'Oréal. In the Vatican, at the edge of St Peter's Square, Mercedes hails the pope with the message that 'not all dreams disappear at dawn'.

But the Pantheon plan is the first ancient Roman monument to be considered as an advertising opportunity. The plan has great potential, both for publicity and controversy.

The domed temple - built in AD80 and converted into a church around 609 - is seen by most of the estimated 10 million tourists who visit the Italian capital each year. It is surrounded by cafes and restaurants in the Piazza della Rotonda, a favourite gelato stop.

Under the new deal, advertising firm InterPromos hopes the €700,000 restoration will take place before the end of the year. Work is likely to last at least a year, during which scaffolding will be covered with an enormous advert, rotating through different companies. At night it will be illuminated.

InterPromos spokesman Carlo Sinopoli believes advertising -
controlled by law to limit the space and time adverts can be
displayed - can help make Italy 'all new and shiny'.

'We hope that, if the Pantheon project goes well, we can do the same with the Colosseum. And, who knows, maybe the leaning tower of Pisa one day,' he told The Observer.

But archaeology chief Adriano la Regina believes there is no
restoration going on behind most of the mega-adverts in Rome. For him, the Pantheon plan is the latest, most flagrant scam.

'Buildings are being restored just so adverts can be displayed. There is one palazzo in the Piazza Venezia that has been restored three times in the past few years,' he said.

But officials are not the only ones in favour of the advertising solution. Italia Nostra, a pressure group which campaigns to preserve Italy's heritage, believes the short-term 'visual disturbance' of giant adverts is a small price to pay for monuments to be restored.

'Sadly the days are gone when rich benefactors used to donate
millions for the love of art,' said Vanna Mannucci, vice-president of Italia Nostra in Rome. 'Unfortunately our politicians are myopic. It has not entered their DNA yet that monuments are the best thing Italy has, so they are worth investing in.'

In the absence of funds and with flaking frescoes and peeling palazzi all over Italy, Mannucci is pragmatic. 'It's time to understand, the rich monuments must be made to pay for the poorer ones.'

She is delighted that the Pantheon advertisers will be obliged to fund works on more obscure buildings. 'I'm sorry for the tourists who turn up and find they can't see a monument, only an advert. But for the next 20 years or more everyone else will see it. Someone has to compromise.'

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4935678-102275,00.html

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies

The Gorgon body Art.

10vat10us — Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:35:37 GMT

I have been working on sketches for a head of Medusa tattoo.My take is to design a Modern or digital Age Gorgon. So lately I've been looking at lots of examples of Medusa art. I'll post some designs in the future, but if anyone has links or personal examples of work I would love to them.
Thanks,
Jeric_A_Drone

posted in Greece & Rome - 1 reply

translation from latin to greek?

Michele — Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:07:51 GMT

Hey there I was wondering if anyone knows how to say the following phrase in greek: qui facit per alium facit per se, or in english: he who acts for another acts for himself. I want to impress a professor!
Thanks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 5 replies

translation from latin to greek?

Michele — Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:07:23 GMT

Hey there I was wondering if anyone knows how to say the phrase in greek: qui facit per alium facit per se, or in english: he who acts for another acts for himself. I want to impress a professor!
Thanks!

posted in Greece & Rome - 0 replies